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New articles

Since we are conflicting with the HYDRA situation, I am thinking now, should we create entire new articles for the characters and the organizations for this Framework reiality and leave the established ones the way they are?--Blaublau94 (talk) 12:12, February 22, 2017 (UTC)

For now, I'll say we should wait and see. For the four characters that are trapped in the Framework, definitely no. It's part of their own history/biography...--Shabook (talk) 12:30, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
Not new page, because they are the same characters trapped in a fictional reality, and not counterpart from a different universe. But we should add their new personal feature from the fictional universe, with the appropriate tag --Elledy92 (talk) 13:36, February 22, 2017 (UTC+1)
Another page should be made for characters that are not trapped in the Framework but that are part of it. Such as HYDRA or Ward. AKA S.I.H (talk) 13:02, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
I agree with AKA, Ward and HYDRA are created in the computer, but Mack, Coulson and so on have their own minds inside it, so their profiles should be expanded to include what they do in the Framework, while we should make a Grant Ward (Framework) profile. Nerdtastic1221 (talk) 13:14, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
For the real people whose minds are trapped in the Framework we shouldn't make articles, that's obvious. Just put a new subsection in their biographies with the title "Trapped in the Framework", or "Life in the Framework". However, if, and that's a very big IF until April, if they encounter someone who is already dead in the real world but whom Aida had "resurrected" in the Framework (like Grant Ward), should we make new articles for them, that's what Blaublau is asking. I think we should. We already have articles for the LMDs, so we should also have articles for those programs. If Ward exists within the Framework, we'll name his article Grant Ward (Program), to distinguish him from his real-world counterpart. The same works for organizations and locations. We know HYDRA exists so we should name that article HYDRA (Program), the Triskelion should be Triskelion (Program), etc. But that's only if those programs all reappear in the next episode. If they don't, a small mention in the real locations and organizations should be enough. Does anyone have some other suggestions? --UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 13:16, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
We should use (Framework) instead of (Program) as tag.--Shabook (talk) 13:20, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
Agreed.--Blaublau94 (talk) 13:23, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
Similar point... Should the Aida vs May fight that occured inside the Framework be included on Aida's profile... Was she a digital recreation like Ward or did Aida plug herself into the Framework to fight May? Thoughts? Nerdtastic1221 (talk) 13:35, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
I think that wasn't Aida plugging herself into the Framework but a digital recreation. --Bridgetterocks (talk) 13:44, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
Or, maybe Aida, since she's a robot, can be in both the Framework and the real world at the same time. --UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 13:49, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Uskok. We didn't need to create Aida ver.2 when she was rebuilt. Similarly, I think we don't need a separate article for "Aida (Framework)". It is the same consciousness living both in the robotic body and in virtual reality. As for the tag, I agree with Shabook; "Framework" makes more sense than "Program" does. -Silacko (talk) 13:58, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
Since there's not much more to add, I agree that we should just add sections to real people trapped in the Framework and create articles for "resurrected" people and organizations ( Grant Ward (Framework) and HYDRA (Framework)). Dr.Who1997To The Playground 15:24, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
I see that this situation has already been settled, but how would we handle a situation in which multiple LMDs of a character are made, each one with different programming. For example, if another LMD of Mack is made, how would we distinguish between the new one and the one destroyed at the Playground? SonOfAres1 (talk) 18:14, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
The same way we handled the situation with two Aidas.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 18:20, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
I do agree with the new creation of articles but also I would suggest add certain events on the Biography of dead characters, like Grant Ward... Legacy or something. And what about a Timeline (Framework) article?? --Marvelous345678 (talk) February 22, 2017 (UTC)
I think since the Framework is essentially another reality, I think that a Timeline article specifically for the Framework would be appropriate Zalarath (talk) 22:16, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
Glad to know you do agree :D. But what about the rest...--Marvelous345678 (talk) February 22, 2017 (UTC)
Some of the dead characters already have the Legacy section (Ward, for example) and a small mention about their Framework counterparts is okay. I'm not sure about the Framework timeline, though. The Framework is a virtual reality, a 3D video game (like Second Life or the Matrix), nothing more. One more thing. DO NOT put the Framework characters', locations', or organiations' appearances in their real world counterparts Appearances sections. The Framework Ward is not the real Ward. The Framework Ward's appearance should not be listed in the real Ward's Appearances section. The Framework HYDRA is not the real HYDRA. The Framework Triskelion is not the real Triskelion. This is just like the case of an LMD and his/her human counterpart. If they don't appear in the same episode, the LMD's appearances are not listed as the human's appearances and vice versa. The same works for the real humans, organizations and locations and their Framework counterparts. --UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 19:25, February 23, 2017 (UTC)
Framework page can serve as timeline page. Maybe add a section Timeline or something like that --User:Assassin1and2 (talk) February 23, 2017 (UTC)
We'll see how the season develops before. Timeline is not this wiki's priority.--Shabook (talk) 22:43, February 23, 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, will see... but it was a suggestion if it will be approved great! --Marvelous345678 (talk) February 23, 2017 (UTC)

So.. from what I understood from Self Control, Daisy and Simmons were uploaded on their preexisting Framework bodies right? In this case Simmons is a deceased and Daisy is a HYDRA agent alongside her boyfiend Ward inside the Framework, until the "upload" happens. So now, the Real Daisy wakes up in HYDRA Daisy's body and Real Simmons wakes up in Dead Simmons' body inside the coffin. My questions are:

  • Should we make articles for them as well, since they are different characters the same way the Framework Ward is different from the Real Ward?
  • Should we create articles for the Teacher Coulson, HYDRA May, Rich Fitz like the Framework Ward since they are also different versions of those characters with totally different lives and backgrounds?

If so, this will clear the confusion on whether SHIELD May should be listed as a HYDRA agent. Example: An entire new article for the Framework versions (Teacher Coulson, HYDRA May, Rich Fitz, Dead Simmons, HYDRA Daisy and the already existing Framework Ward) with a new Background Section (for the Framework life they have as an A.I.) and a "Upload section" with the info as from the Real life character was uploaded in their bodies. What do you think?--Blaublau94 (talk) 23:08, March 2, 2017 (UTC)

There are too many possibilities to know before we see how the show actually treats this. We'll decide once the show returns. So far they have appeared for like 10 seconds each...--Shabook (talk) 23:16, March 2, 2017 (UTC)
I agree to create new articles for the Framework versions of the characters until their consciousnesses are uploaded to the machine. Though, as Shabook said, we know very little about each of them for now, so maybe we could wait until April. -Silacko (talk) 05:38, March 3, 2017 (UTC)
After some thinking, I'm worried that creating new article for every single character uploaded into the Framework might lead to some inconsistencies. Take HYDRA (Framework) for instance. Under the "Notable Members" section, should we include Melinda May (she's uploaded after all) or Melinda May (Framework) (who joined HYDRA in the first place)? Holden Radcliffe is another issue; he constantly entered and left the Framework, and currently he's in the Framework (despite being physically dead), so which part of his biography belongs to his actual self and which to his Framework counterpart? Silacko (talk) 06:13, March 3, 2017 (UTC)
A great reason not to rush. As we always should, Marvel acts and then we react; not the inverse order...--Shabook (talk) 12:19, March 3, 2017 (UTC)
In this case the Melinda May (Framework). Since She is the one who has the background of being a HYDRA agent and the real word May was just uploaded in her body. Radcliffe is a different issue. His Framework version is just an avatar, he doesn't have a different background a life story, it's just a digital body for him to work on the Framework... well, now that his is physically dead and his consciousness is permanently in the Framework, AIDA probably programed a "life without regret" for him. For this version of Radcliffe I think we should create an article.--Blaublau94 (talk) 12:54, March 3, 2017 (UTC)
I disagree. This Radcliffe is the same as the one we've seen so far. His consciousness just isn't in his body anymore, but in a virtual reality. It's as if we created a new article for Ivanov's new body. Just waiting for the show to come back really is the best thing to do to avoid unnecessary confusion. Dr.Who1997To The Playground 13:01, March 3, 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Shabook and Dr.Who. We should wait. Better safe than sorry. Also, we should not make Framework counterparts articles for real people whose minds are trapped in the Framework. They are still real people, even though they are living in a dream. The Melinda May (Framework) example is not exactly a good one because as far as we know, HYDRA (Framework) was made/programmed after May entered the Framework. So technically, it was the real May who joined HYDRA (Framework) and Melinda May (Framework) probably never even existed. The same works for the Teacher Coulson, the rich Fitz and the currently unseen Mace. Knowing Aida he could be anything, from Supreme Hydra to an ordinary pizza delivery guy. The Framework Ward is a programmed character. As for Daisy and Simmons, even though it seems they took the places of their Framework counterparts, we shouldn't write anything until we see if that's true. Radcliffe and Agnes Kitsworth are probably living in the Framework just like Arnim Zola lived in his old computer. One other thing that needs to be discussed is categorizing. Aside from the living people within the Framework, everything else in it is not real. Therefore, should we catgorize Triskelion (Framework) as a location, or as a Framework Program, because that's what it is. Just a program in a video game. The same question applies to HYDRA (Framework) and Grant Ward (Framework).--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 14:08, March 3, 2017 (UTC)

Well, since now the episode is up, I think we can cantinue the conversation. I still think we should create entire new articles for the Framework characters (even Jemma and Skye) and contine their Bios through there. For example:

  • Jemma Simmons (Framework) was a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent who was killed by HYDRA (Framework) and the consciousness of the real world Jemma was uploaded into her body...
  • Skye (Framework) was a HYDRA (Framework) agent who was in a relationship with Ward (Framework) until the consciousness of the real world Skye was uploaded into her body...
  • Vijay Nadeer (Framework) was an Inhuman who was captured by HYDRA (Framework)...
  • Phil Coulson (Framework) was a school teacher...
  • Melinda May (Framework) was a S.H.I.E.L.D. (Framework) agent who became a HYDRA (Framework) agent after the Cambridge accident...
  • Holden Radcliffe (Framework) was a scientist who worked on a cure for Inhumanity....
  • And so on...

And as I said continue the Bio through there. I think this clears up the confusion about Framework and not Framework Characters. From now on until the end of Agents of HYDRA we should only edit and create Framework pages and adit there. So, what do you think?--Blaublau94 (talk) 12:39, April 5, 2017 (UTC)

I agree about about Vijai Nadeer. However, May and Coulson are different cases. They are real people who are connected to the Framework. Before they were captured there was no need for a virtual Coulson and virtual May to exist in the Framework. May was Aida's first "lab rat" in the Framework so Aida shaped the Framework to be May's personal paradise, sort of, thus creating the world where May saved Katya Belyakov. But there is no trace of Coulson ever being a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent in that world. In May's rewritten life she never met him. Later she joined HYDRA and became Number 3 in the Triskelion. When Coulson was captured his memories were rewritten and he became a teacher. As far as we know there never was a Coulson in the Framework before that moment because there was no need for him. Don't forget that this is still a virtual world. Aida can give it any form she wants. She makes peoples' lives in the Framework, she writes their memories. As for Jemma and Daisy, they are even more different. They took the places of their Framework counterparts, so we know those counterparts existed, not to mention that Frame-Ward and May remember Skye and that there is a file about Frame-Jemma, but those two ceased to exist when the real Jemma and Daisy logged into the Framework. So I agree with creating articles for Jemma Simmons (Framework) and Skye (Framework).--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 18:10, April 5, 2017 (UTC)
I agree to create articles for Skye (framework) and Jemma Simmons (framework), but they should include information only until the two enter the framework, because once they got in, Skye (framework) kind of became inactive, and Jemma (framework) was already dead. Vijay definitely needs a framework page, as decided before (since he wasn't uploaded to the framework). As for May, we know that everything she did was the real May's actions, so Melinda May (framework) never existed. Not sure about Coulson and others, though; until some point, their A.I. counterparts must have existed, but we can't know when. Silacko (talk) 18:58, April 5, 2017 (UTC)
Even the characters that had been uploaded Like Coulson, Mack, Mace, May, Daisy and Simmons have a Framework backstory, that's why they need the pages. Saying that real life Melinda May is a HYDRA agent and the real life Coulson is a teacher or that Skye is an Inactive Inhuman is incorrect, they are totally different characters. Even Radcliff (who seems to know the is inside a simulation) has a different backstory than the real one. Since this is a different reality with defferent characters, there should be different pages for the charactersfor all of them. To have just some of them with different pages and some of them with the same page is really confusing from my point of view.--Blaublau94 (talk) 19:18, April 5, 2017 (UTC)
I think this is a bit about which perspective we choose. From real-world point of view, for instance "Grant Ward (Framework) is a computer-programmed character...", whose Status is Active. He doesn't necessarily have a background story; he is just a piece of code that began to exist at some point in the timeline of the Framework. From the Framework point of view, "Grant Ward was a Hydra infiltrator secretly working with the Resistance...", whose status is Alive. He was born on the same date with the real Ward, and lived a life (just in another reality). Both approaches make sense, at least to me, but we need to choose either. If we're going to use the real-world perspective (which is currently being used, I think), then May (Framework) never existed, and Skye (Framework) ceased to exist once Daisy got into the Framework. What do you guys think? Silacko (talk) 19:36, April 5, 2017 (UTC)
From my point of view we should create Framework pages for every character who have appeared in the Framework. In the Jemma/Daisy/Radcliffe situation (characters who have been uploaded and know they are in a simulation) it's the same thing, but we write that the real life counterpart was upload on the avatar and continue through there. That's the best scenario, no more need to divide information on Framework and Not Framework pages like we are doing know... Every Framework character is listed as an Artificial Inteligence insted of a Human and the affiliations, biographies, relationships and overall info stay correct.--Blaublau94 (talk) 19:51, April 5, 2017 (UTC)
They have the backstories because those backstories were written by Aida. But those backstories were written when Aida captured those people, not before. There was no need for those people to exist in the Framework before she captured the real ones. Aida was changing the Framework case by case. She captures May and puts her mind in. In the next moment May saves Katya and everyone's happy. Aida captures Coulson, Mack, Fitz, and Mace and puts their minds in. In the next moment suddenly there's a teacher Coulson at Alexander Pierce High School, HYDRA has taken over the world, there's an ordinary man Mack who lives with his daughter, and there's Jeffrey Mace, the hero of the Resistance. And for everyone that's perfectly normal. We know there were Frame-Jemma and Frame-Skye because we've seen proofs of their existence (the photo of Skye with Ward and the file about Jemma) but there is no proof that Frame-Mack, Frame-Fitz, Frame-Coulson, and Frame-Mace ever existed in the Framework before Aida wrote the HYDRA-rules-the-world program.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 19:53, April 5, 2017 (UTC)
The problem is that these "proofs" are also written by Aida. Everything is written by Aida, that's the point. None of it is real according to the Earth-199999 but the Framework is a new reality on itself... it's all a simulation. When you say that the Framework Coulson only started existing after the real one was uploaded, it makes no sense to say that already existed a Framework Skye and a Framework Simmons before they were uploaded. Acording to the show all of them have backstories, the uploaded ones and the AI ones, you have no proof to say that they didn't existed before. They have computer/magic generated backstories? Yes. But so every other Framework character like Ward, Madame Hydra and even Pinsky... I still stand with my solution, i makes no sense to divide the characters like this since they are all different versions of the Earth-199999 ones.--Blaublau94 (talk) 20:08, April 5, 2017 (UTC)
"There was no need for those people to exist in the Framework before she captured the real ones.".

I dont agree with this sentence. By the looks of it Framework-earth is a normaly populated one. There was no need for the women that helped Jemma to exist, yet they did. There was no need for any of the people whose cars got checked to exist, or those in the coffee shop. Or any of the students. So why would they exist, but not Framework versions of Coulson and crew. Framework Earth is in most sence a normal earth, except for the fact that it is a computer program. SoTomasDerksen (talk) 20:56, April 5, 2017 (UTC)
Exactly! That's my point. Aida created the Framework using also magic, let not forget that. Everyone inside it is a copy of someone outside it, but with a different life. Before the upload there were already versions of them living inside the Framework, their consciousness was uploaded in an avatar, but the avatar was already there.--Blaublau94 (talk) 22:10, April 5, 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it's a good idea to create separate pages for the counterparts of the agents that were hooked up to the Framework. The LMDs are separate entities, while these are basically brainwashed versions of our characters.Dr.Who1997To The Playground 04:02, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
i think we need to make them. We cant write the things that happened to the framework versions into the bio of the normal once, because they dont happen to the normal once. While framework coulson is teaching his class, real coulson is stuck in a machine at aidas base. They are 2 different characters. And therefor should haven 2 different pages.TomasDerksen (talk) 10:32, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
I beg to differ. They aren't two different characters, but the same ones with false memories. The fact that Framework Coulson remembers shreds of his real life proves that. And what would be wrong about their pages having a "Life in the Framework" section? Dr.Who1997To The Playground 10:38, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
Yes they are... as I said, this is a new different reality. The Earth-199999 Melinda May did not save the girl in Bahrain, but the Framework one did. It doesn't make sense to list the Earth-199999 Phil Coulson as a school teacher since one is a SHIELD agent and the other is the theacher. By your definition none of these pages should exist, yet they are all different versions of the Earth-199999 ones inside the Earth-199999 reality, exactly like the Framework ones. I stant with TomasDerksen, "We cant write the things that happened to the framework versions into the bio of the normal ones". Different characters, should have different pages.--Blaublau94 (talk) 13:12, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
It's not exactly like that: the Melinda May in the Framework is Melinda May from Earth-199999. She is only brainwashed because she is relieving a totally different reality. The same can be said for Fitz and Coulson. Grant Ward from the Framework it is not the real Grant Ward, however, but only a digital structure that resemble the original. --Elledy92 (talk) 15:32, April 6, 2017 (UTC+1)
Elledy got exactly my point. By your logic, Blaublau, the May that fought Aida in the Framework isn't the real May either. But she was. Everyone who was uploaded into their "avatars" is still themselves, but with altered memories. Hence why it's possible to recall details of their real lives. Dr.Who1997To The Playground 13:36, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
The Framework is not a new reality, it's just a virtual simulation, like a 3D video game. The real May was the one who saved the virtual Katya. Katya's death was May's biggest mistake and Aida changed that, giving May the happy ending that she always wanted. It makes no sense for Aida to connect the real people to the Framework and then create their virtual duplicates to live the lives that real people wanted to live. If Aida planned the virtual duplicates to live the fantasies that real people wanted to live, why would she connect the real people to the Framework in the first place? Just kill them and be done with them. Also, it was made clear that if a real person dies in the Framework, that person would also die in the real world, which makes them the same character.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 13:43, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
It is not the real May though. The real may is the one in Aida's base, the one standing in a machine connected to the framework. Since it is not a real world, but a virtial world, all the people in it are virtual duplicates. Just because they are connected, does not mean they are the same person. One is a real human being, the other one is a program. The real Coulson is stuck in a machine, the virtual version of Coulson is a teacher on a high school. If Coulson were to be placed in the Framework for a full year, then in the biography of Coulson it should be placed that way, that for a year Coulson has been connected to the framework and stuck in a machine. That the one in the framework is a teacher has nothing to do with the real coulson, since he is not a teacher, and he will never be a teacher.

The best way in my eyes, is the way it is now done in the Ward article. A small alinea, but the majority of the information should be placed on a seperate page for the character from the framwork reality.TomasDerksen (talk) 21:45, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
Coulson's life inside the Framework is still part of his biography, since it is the real Phil Coulson who was put in the Framework, and it is his real consciousness to be affected by the fictional reality, not a copy. --(Elledy92)Elledy 22:21, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
it might be the real coulson who is conmected to the framework, but the things that are happening to the framework coulson are not happening to the real coulson, the real coulson is not doing anything, besides being connected to the framework.TomasDerksen (talk) 23:41, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
I don't think this is getting us anywhere, should we just vote? Dr.Who1997To The Playground 03:09, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
"By your logic, Blaublau, the May that fought Aida in the Framework isn't the real May either". That is an entire different case. The May fought Aida in the Framework is the SHIELD agent May, and she eventually realized she was in a simulation. The May that saved the girl in Bahrain and now is a HYDRA agent is a totally different character, don't you see? That is so simple.
Who is Hope Mackenzie's father in this video? Well, it's not the real Mack. The real Mack lost his daughter and now his body is trapped by Aida. Hope Mackenzie's father here is another version of the character, a version that is not a SHIELD agent.
"Who is Hope Mackenzie's father in this video?" That's the real Mack, his consciousness, with a virtual character that supposed to be his daughter. That's just like in the final season of "Lost", where in the "other life" Jack Shepard is real Jack, while his son is just a fictional character made in that world. --Elledy 11:41, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
I totally agree on creating Framework pages of the characters because it doesn't make sense to create pages for some of them and not for other ones since all of them a different versions of the Earth-199999 ones. Why Madame HYDRA who is the leader of HYDRA in this reality deserve a page and Jemma Simmons who was killed in the academy don't? Why the Grant Ward who is an infiltrate in HYDRA deserve a page but the Coulson who is a school teacher don't? This just create confusion, misunderstanding and lack of overall cohesionfor the wiki.
If it helps, you could take a look at this. Marvel (who is the creator of the comics who the episode title, "What If...", takes its inspiration from) organize this What If scenarios by taking each of these new realities, with other versions of the same characters with different backgrounds and putting them in seperate realities.--Blaublau94 (talk) 19:31, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
But when you think about it, there's a huge difference between Grant Ward and Phil Coulson in the Framework. Ward was never captured by Aida and his consciousness was never uploaded to the Framework. Coulson and others, on the other hand, were intentionally captured alive so that they could be uploaded and live in the Framework. Even if Coulson's physical body is killed right now, it'll still be the real Coulson that lives in the virtual reality (just like Arnim Zola). There has to be a difference between those who were uploaded and those who were programmed; otherwise, why would Aida need to catch the agents alive?
By the way, I still strongly insist on creating pages for Jemma Simmons (Framework) and Skye (Framework) that contain information about their AI counterparts prior to Simmons' death and Daisy's entering the Framework. Silacko (talk) 20:24, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
Let's examine the evidences again, shall we? First, Aida's goal is to make people's greatest regrets be wiped away, so they could live the lives they always wanted. To accomplish that, she connected them to the Framework, a virtual world which she controls. That's pretty clear and I think we all agree on that.
Second, remember what Jemma said at the end of Self Control. "We've managed to identify the duplicate avatars of myself and Daisy that are running around in there." Now, were those avatars living the lives in which Jemma and Daisy's greatest regret was erased? No, they weren't. And why is that? Because Aida didn't even know what their greatest regret was. She never had a chance to scan their brains and find out all their secrets. She could only create their avatars to serve as inhabitants of that virtual world like the rest of the 7,4 billion avatars.
Third, the avatars are not self-aware beings, they're all just a giant piece of code in a computer, a bunch of puppets on Aida's strings. Aida was the one who wrote their lives. The Framework is a video game with Aida's rules. They may think of themselves as real beings but they're not.
Fourth, the avatars are in the Framework to live there instead of real people. When real people log into the Framework, the avatars wanish. When Jemma and Daisy logged into the Framework, they took the places of their avatars. Since Daisy's avatar was programmed to be a HYDRA agent who is still called Skye, Daisy woke up in a bath tub because just a moment earlier her avatar, the HYDRA agent Skye, was taking a bath. Since Jemma's avatar was programmed to be a slaughtered S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, Jemma woke up in a mass grave with her clothes full of bullet holes.
Fifth, Aida didn't know what Mack's, Coulson's, Mace's, and Fitz's biggest regrets were before she captured them. Therefore, she couldn't create alternate lives in the Framework for them while they were free. When she connected them to the Framework, that's when teacher Coulson, ordinary guy Mack, the Ressistance hero Mace and HYDRA Doctor Fitz appeared. They didn't exist before that.
Sixth, if the real person is supposed to live the alternate life in the Framework, why would Aida create an avatar to live that alternate life? Holden Radcliffe has shown that the real person is connected to the Framework. Whatever the connected person experiences in the Framework, that person will also experience that in the real world. It was made clear at the end of Self Control that if the connected person dies in the Framework, that person will also die in the real world.
Seventh, if Mack, Coulson, Mace, and Fitz in the Framework are not the real ones but their avatars, why does Coulson still remember some bits of his old life? If that Coulson in the Framework is just an avatar, he's not supposed to remember anything from the real Coulson's life, because the avatar's whole life as a school teacher would be entirely made up by Aida. And yet, Coulson is collecting newspapers articles like a detective (or a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent), he's repeating the "It's a magical place" mantra, and the crucial evidence - he remembers Daisy at the end of What If.... An avatar would be unable to do that because the avatar would never have met anyone named Daisy.
Eight, the bodies of our heroes are in the real world, true, but their minds are trapped in the Framework, and that's what counts. Aida wants the real people's minds to experience the lives they wanted, not their avatars. If she wanted the avatars to experience that, she wouldn't need to capture the real people at all. She would have just made the avatars that look like Mack, Coulson, Mace, and Fitz, like she did with Grant Ward, and give them some lives that had no relation to the real people's wishes. That's why Mack, Coulson, Mace, and Fitz in the Framework are the real ones. Jemma says to Coulson, "I know I sound like a lunatic, but you have had your mind wiped and implanted with false memories." Coulson is a teacher because he never joined S.H.I.E.L.D., Mace is ressistance leader because he always wanted to be a hero, Mack's daughter never died and she lives with him, May is a HYDRA agent becuase she saved Katya, and Fitz is a HYDRA doctor (but also a special case, which I'll explain later). But those are still real people's minds who are living false lives.
Ninth, Blaublau is right about Madame Hydra. She doesn't deserve a page. At least not a AoS page. It needs to be reverted back to its CA:SS version. Why? Because, as HawkRythArrow has noticed here, at the end of What If..., Madame Hydra says to Fitz that she has "Eliminated a loophole for their (Daisy and Jemma's) escape." That "loophole" was the extraction device which Jemma programmed for them to log out of the Framework, but which wasn't working when they tried to return to the real world. That means that Madame Hydra is perfectly aware that she's in a virtual world, which means she's actually Aida with a new hairstyle. She wants to keep everything under control, just like she did earlier when she fought with May in the Framework when May tried to escape. That also explains why is Aida/Madame Hydra keeping Fitz with her most of the time. As we learned at the end of Self Control, she wants to experience the real human emotions, and what better way to accomplish that than by having a human lover?
To conclude, this is the course of action we should take: the Madame Hydra page needs to be reverted to its CA:SS version and all AoS info needs to be moved to Aida's page. That includes the HYDRA (Framework) Leaders category. The pages for Daisy's and Jemma's avatars should be made. The girls found them in the Framework so we know those avatars had some histories and interacted with other avatars and real people's minds. We should make avatar pages for real people who are not connected to the Framework but have their Framework avatars. But the actions of Mack, Fitz, Coulson, May, and Mace should go to their pages. We shouldn't make avatar pages for them because there is no proof that those avatars ever existed before Aida captured the real people. We have proofs of Daisy's and Jemma's avatars' existence, but we have no proofs for the four guys' avatars' existence.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 21:21, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
I agree with creating a page for Daisy Johnson (Framework) (or in this case "Skye (Framework)) and Jemma Simmons (Framework), but i don't agree on moving back the Madame Hydra page. In fact, it should be opposite: we should merge the "Aida" and "Madame Hydra" but keeping "Madame Hydra" as the main page, according to the wiki policies. --Elledy 11:45, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
Actually, Aida is a case like John Garrett. She created an alternate identity to play the role in the Framework, but she is first and foremost Aida. The role of Madame Hydra is just a tool which she's using to accomplish her goals, just like Garrett created the Clairvoyant to accomplish his own goals, but Madame Hydra is not Aida's primary identity, just as the Clairvoyant wasn't Garrett's primary identity.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 12:07, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
No, I dont agree at all. Madama Hydra should stay, but not me merged like Elledy says, because the AIDA in the realworld is not Madame Hydra. If we make pages for Daisy and Jemma, we should also make pages for the others (Coulson, Fitz, Mack, Mace and May). These 2 groups are in the exact same situation, except for the fact that Daisy and Jemma know they are in the framework, and the other 5 dont. The argument that there is no proof of them ever having existed makes no sense. Yes, there is no proof, and there would not be a reason for them to have existed before. But there was also no reason for Daisy and Jemma's avatar to exist before, yet they did. Why would 2 of them be made without a reason, but the others not. It makes 0.0 sense. Making pages for some, and no pages for some of the other lacks logic. If it was up to me we make it for everone. The peope in the framework will never be the real version. They will always be a virtual avatar, because it is a virtual world. The real person is just connected to the avatar, that does not mean it is immediatly a real person, it is still an avatar. Still a bunch of code, but this time filled by what Aida can scan from their heads.TomasDerksen (talk) 12:10, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
Aida can be present in both the real world and the Framework at the same time. She showed that when she fought May. She's not Madame Hydra in the real world but she is in the Framework. Sorry, Tomas, but your logic doesn't make sense. What you're saying is that Jemma and Daisy we saw in the latest episode were not the real ones but Aida's creations, and we both know that's not true.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 12:29, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
My makes a lot of sense, while yours, imo, does not. The Jemma and the Daisy we saw last episode are indeed not the real once. The real once are the 2 bodies that are stuck in a machine at the shield base. These 2 are both avatars, connected with the real once, and fully aware they are in a fake world. They aren't phisycal bodies, at all, they are avatars made from a code, but both connected to the real once, and therefor aware they are their. In my opinion, something that is not a real physical human body, but a code-created avatar, connected or not, will never be the real person.

What is happening in AoS is a lot like Virtual Reality gaming. The real person is standing in his living room, while through Virtual Reality he is walking around through the jungle and shooting others with a Call of Duty avatar. The real person is not walking through the jungle, but through his living room while seeing a different world. In AoS the scale of this Virtual Reality world is just 10000x as big.TomasDerksen (talk) 20:34, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
You're right in that the Jemma and Skye we saw in the Framework were virtual bodies, but they are controlled by the real Jemma and Daisy, which makes them both real-world characters. Think of it like Hive entered Grant Ward's body. We didn't include Hive's actions in Ward's biography then; similarly, we shouldn't include the actions of real-world characters in the Framework characters' biographies. -Silacko (talk) 21:07, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
In my situation we are not adding the actions of the real-world characters in the framework character biography. Because the only action the real world characters are currently doing is being connected to a machine (Framework). We are adding the actions of the avatar to the avatar's page. The avatar is just being controlled via the connection the realworld character has with the framework avatar. Avatar =/= Real Person, and it will never be the real person.

There is btw no reason to do a vote, because everyone can see that the majority says that the avatar is a real person.TomasDerksen (talk) 21:15, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
The thing is, the Jemma and Daisy in the Framework are the real ones. If they were the avatars, the avatar Jemma would look like a zombie, because the avatar Jemma was programmed to be dead for years. The avatar Jemma would look just like that corpse beneath the real Jemma when she woke up in the Framework, don't you think? But she didn't look like a corpse. She looked like a real person, with dirty clothes.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 21:58, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
they arent the real once, the real once are still in the real world, connected with the framework. Since the framework is a virtual world, made by code, nothing in there is real, it is all.virtual and all avatars. Jemma does not look like a zombie because off the way they went in, she is a new version of the same avatar, just like skye is a new version of the same avatar. And an avatar can never be a real person. Something made by code will never be a real thing.TomasDerksen (talk) 22:31, April 8, 2017 (UTC)
They are the real ones, the body are in the real world but their consciousness are uploaded in the Framework. If they died in the Framework, they are gone forever.

I still think that the "AIDA" page should be renamed "Madame Hydra": that's her codename now, after all.--Elledy92 (talk) 16:04, April 12, 2017 (UTC+1)

You guys deleted madame Hydra's page? Really? .-. OMG--Blaublau94 (talk) 14:24, April 12, 2017 (UTC)
No one deleted anything. The Madame Hydra page was reverted to its CA:SS version and the AoS MH info was moved to the Aida page. Nothing was lost.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 14:33, April 12, 2017 (UTC)

I know we're not done discussing whether or not Framework visitors should deserve Framework pages, but could we also consider adding information about the species for Framework characters? Currently, the species of Grant Ward (Framework) is "Artificial Intelligence"; I suggest changing it to something like "Human (A.I.)". I know they're not real humans, but this way we can distinguish human A.I.s and Inhuman A.I.s. Is that possible? -Silacko (talk) 22:12, April 12, 2017 (UTC)

Does the silence imply nobody agrees or nobody cares? Silacko (talk) 08:00, April 16, 2017 (UTC)
I think this discussion can be closed, can a short conclusion be written down?TomasDerksen (talk) 12:58, May 29, 2017 (UTC)

New category

Category for Magic Users

I would like to propose a major category for every characters in the MCU who uses Magic. This would include Loki, Frigga and Krugarr. This is because not every magic user is part of a group, and so it doesn't posses a category who represents it.--Elledy92 (Elledy92) 13:34 (UCT + 1)

Promotional Images

By this conversation between me and Nerdtastic1221 we've came up with different views for the same problem. As noted by him most of the galleries here on the wiki have Promotional Still Images listed under Screenshots sections. Since I was the one of the main editors for the Spider-Man/Gallery page, I could shape it the wright way: by adding Still images under the proper Promotional section as they should be. By reading our conversation (and the links I showed him ) you can see that by definition Screenshots and Stills are different things. Nerdtastic1221 justified keeping things the way they are because that's the way we always did and that's why we shouldn't change. Several times we did structural changes here (for the best) and we also did changes that included editing lots and lots of articles (like the addition of the Citizenship and Affiliation categories). That's why I propose to proper rearrange the Gallery pages and rightfully ajust this little mistake we have on our wiki. I would be glad if I could count on your help like I did with the Citizenship and Affiliation categories since I'll need all of it.--Blaublau94 (talk) 17:04, August 7, 2017 (UTC)

SMH Promo Still 3

My argument is that this is a still image from a movie scene, it is a taken from a scene being filmed with the actors. In my mind this allows it to be included in the screenshots section. The screenshots section is for images from the movie/tv show scenes themselves, regardless if they were literally taken from the completed shot or not.

I believe the promotional section of the gallery should be reserved for posters or posed images of the cast.

Backing me up is the fact that in the wiki's entire history, these sorts or images have always been included in the screenshots section of the galleries.Nerdtastic1221 (talk) 17:28, August 7, 2017 (UTC)

There are things that don't have to be discussed. Definitions are what they are. And any image that appears in a movie or TV episode is an screenshot, no matter if it was taken from the released media, or by Marvel prior to the release...--Shabook (talk) 17:43, August 7, 2017 (UTC)
Except this image does not appear in a TV episode or a movie. They are set photo, they have different angles and cuts and light and are not representative of the final product.--Elledy92 (talk) 10:49, August 8, 2017 (UTC+1)
Agreed. Set photos such as the one shown above with Ned Leeds and Peter Parker should be categorized under "stills"; if anything, however, it would still fall under "Promotional" rather than "Screenshots". Murali9395 (talk) 14:37, August 8, 2017 (UTC)

I would say there's a difference between a set picture and a still, and a still has more relevance in the screenshots section. I honestly believe that the promotional section should be reserved for posters, and cast photoshoots like the recent ones from the Inhumans. On another point, for ease of use on this wiki, it is vastly easier to find a still image from a movie/tv scene when it's in the screenshots section in the correct order. And as Shabook says, why does anyone want to try and redefine this? If anything should be changed (which it doesn't need to), then perhaps consider changing the word screenshots to stills, but that is still basically pointless.Nerdtastic1221 (talk) 15:36, August 8, 2017 (UTC)

Or maybe there should be a section for "stills" as well as a section for "screenshots", with the latter being classified for actual screenshots taken from the film. And this way, the "promotional" section is reserved for posters, magazine artwork, etc. Adding another header isn't going to be too difficult or a waste of time, even. And it does smooth this issue out, does it not? Murali9395 (talk) 15:40, August 8, 2017 (UTC)
There isn't much of a difference between a still and a set photo. They are the same thing. The difference between a screenshot and a still is the first one is a frame taken from a video, the latter is a photo taken from video. There is no need to create a "stills" paragraph, but they certanly fall more under the category of promotional material. Elledy92 (talk) 19:23, August 8, 2017 (UTC+1)

I agree with Blaublau94. Just because the wiki has always done something doesn't mean it needs to stay that way. Stills released by Marvel are mostly set photos (the ones that aren't are usually the ones that have CGI, in which case they are actually screencaps). By the strictest definitions of canon, which is what we usually abide by, set photos would therefore not be canon and shouldn't appear in screenshots or on in universe pages and should just be in the promotional galleries. Coluanprime (talk) 18:17, August 9, 2017 (UTC)

IF the "still" does not literally appear the same way in the movie/tv-show, it should not be in screenshots, if it does (like a lot of them do) it could fit as a screenshot. But if making this change could lead to "stills" that match "screenshots" could end up not falling under screenshots, even though they technicaly are, I dont agree with the change, because that wont mean fixing a mistake, but just changing a mistake. Atleast they should not end up in the set photos.TomasDerksen (talk) 20:24, August 11, 2017 (UTC)
But still hardly cannot be mistaken for screenshots. Sometimes they appear similar, maybe shots in a similar angle, but lights and cuts are usually different. I think that cannot be mistaken. Elledy92 (talk) 23:51, August 11, 2017 (UTC+1)

Removing Reviews Pages

Well, I've been wondering for a while why are we keeping Reviews pages, that are simply a copy-paste of what other people think and write in many websites available. These pages are rarely edited, and never updated (the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. one is based on the Pilot episode four years ago...) So, I'd like to hear a good reason on what do they benefit to the wiki, or else I think we should delete them.--Shabook (talk) 22:42, August 23, 2017 (UTC)

I tend to agree. They don't seem to be pretty useful. I wouldn't mind if they are deleted. --Elledy92 (talk) 02:08, August 24, 2017 (UTC+1)
If they aren't used anymore they should be deleted. The Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. (talk) 00:44, August 24, 2017 (UTC)

Timeline Upkeep

I've been a regular lurker for some time, and have been using the timeline for a personal fan project, and just noticed it hasn't been updated at all for Defenders, which has been out for awhile. Id be happy to work on that, but I wanted to connect with the other people who regularly work on the timeline first, especially because they have put such amazingly meticulous work into figuring it out and I don't wanna muck that up. if anyone can please let me know whats happening with timeline work and how I can help

BardicFire (talk) 23:12, November 5, 2017 (UTC)


In all the character pages, in the "appearences" section of the infoboxes, a list of movies is listed. However, a lot of the characters infoboxes have movies listed in which they were just mentioned. This directly contradicts what an "appearence" is and the sections could be much more tidier if these were cut out and only the movies in which that character actually appeared are listed in the "appearences" section. Hopefully people can understand where I'm coming from and start clearing this issue up. Thanks. Mysterious Editor (talk) 13:27, November 12, 2017 (UTC)

It's coincidental that this is brought up now because I've been thinking about that a bit lately. I think that the wiki would be a bit tidier if the mentions are only listed in the "Appearances" part of a character bio, not the infobox. SwagMasterDbl (talk) 13:34, November 12, 2017 (UTC)
Not every character has or deserves an Appearances section. Infoboxes are exactly ass they are meant to be, inclusive and informative, not just "tidy". Sorry, but not gonna happem.--Shabook (talk) 13:41, November 12, 2017 (UTC)
You have clearly misunderstood the point of this. Please read my original comment. The Appearances section would be fine if you remove movies where the said character is only "mentioned". Since being mentioned is not an appearance, by definition. Mysterious Editor (talk) 18:24, November 13, 2017 (UTC)
I've clearly read everything. It's exactly as it is meant to be.--Shabook (talk) 19:08, November 13, 2017 (UTC)
A mention is not an appearance though is it? Mysterious Editor (talk) 19:29, November 13, 2017 (UTC)

Sorcerers Category


May I create the Sorcerers category? I believe that this deserves its own category. Banana32 (talk) 20:18, November 28, 2017 (UTC)