This is a talk page to discuss the improvement of World War II. This talk page is currently inactive.
To discuss this article's topic and ask questions, see the Discussions Area.Please remember to remain civil during all disputes.
Sign any comments you make on this page with four tildes (
~~~~
).Lack of Sources[]
- The following discussion is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.
- ' {{{sig}}}
Following the sourcing policies of the Marvel Cinematic Universe Wiki, and the conjecture policies, every real world event has to have been mentioned in a Marvel Cinematic Universe source in order to appear in or to be mentioned in one of our articles. We can wait until Agent Carter finishes its first season, as the first episodes had confirmed the events at Guadalcanal or Iwo Jima, but other things cannot be assumed just to fill the article, which is exactly what the Conjecture Policy says. I don't see any reason why this article has to be special... Shabook (talk) 05:41, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- This article is "special" for the same reason all those articles on real-world individuals are "special" with real-world dates of birth and death. Unlike other Marvel universes, the MCU isn't a typical fictional world with only a few historical characters and events. It is the same world as ours, enlarged with a few superheroes and villains. As you have noticed, references to the historical events are slowly but steadily appearing all over the MCU products. Therefore, I see no real reason for erasing half of this article.--UskokHail HYDRA! 08:14, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Using your same reasoning, real world characters would be filled with their real world biographies copy-pasted from Wikipedia, real world locations would be filled with their real world history, and so on... The Index was removed from every name that has not been confirmed for that reason, despite it was clearly indicated that they were potential names, not confirmed names; and you personally deleted and forbid creation for articles about locations such as Croatia or Ivory Coast because they were not explicitly mentioned in MCU material, despite there are MCU events that happened in those locations. Why this double standards? This article is by no means different than others, and as such it must contain information taken from MCU related sources. Shabook (talk) 08:35, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- You have bad memory, mate. Remind me, what exactly happened in Croatia in the MCU?--UskokHail HYDRA! 08:55, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly the same that happened in Zagreb, the arrival of the train that Coulson's Team boarded. For Ivory Coast, exactly the same that happened in Abidjan, Black Widow and Hawkeye's mission. There are many examples, but that's not the topic of this. The topic is, when exactly was the invasion of Poland mentioned in the MCU? or the events in the whole Fall of Western Europe sub-section? Could you please point me the MCU source the Sourcing Policy says that must be added? Because I'm unable to find it... Shabook (talk) 09:01, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- That's the difference between you and me, mate. Where you see informations related strictly to the topic, I see a lot of other important (though background) informations. HYDRA couldn't build a factory in Poland unless that country was occupied by the Germans. Dugan's joke about the French not defending Paris means that France was occupied by the Germans. In Schneider you see only one minor guy whose only purpose is to be killed by the big bad guy, but I see his medals and the real-world history behind those medals. In The Captain America Adventure Program you see only silly stories about Cap saving Betty from the evil Nazis, but I see a fictionalization of the real-world battle in the Ardennes. In this poster you see only one guy in a colorful costume, but I see the proof that Allied troops are present on the battlefields of Europe and North Africa. Since the tour was cancelled when the Allies are already present in Italy, that means that North Africa is already liberated by the Allies. In this image you see only some boxes, but I see the proof about the existence of the Afrika Korps and all the battles fought in North Africa during the war. And please, don't start with those-are-just-assumptions complaints.--UskokHail HYDRA! 10:53, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not complaining about the information, I'm complaining about the double standards. Why this article can have this information, but you didn't allow an article about Ivory Coast when, from an in-universe point of view, Agents Romanoff and Barton traveled to that country and performed a mission, even seen in footage behind Coulson, with a set of coordinates that, according to Google Earth, are a warehouse in the city of Abidjan, Ivory Coast. If one thing is allowed, then why another that falls exactly under the same criteria is not?
And by the way, all the examples that have highlighted are in-universe references, and therefore, suitable of being placed in any article. I was asking about all the events that lack any source. That's exactly the title of this discussion, so please, don't try to change my question to suit your opinion. Shabook (talk) 11:00, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not complaining about the information, I'm complaining about the double standards. Why this article can have this information, but you didn't allow an article about Ivory Coast when, from an in-universe point of view, Agents Romanoff and Barton traveled to that country and performed a mission, even seen in footage behind Coulson, with a set of coordinates that, according to Google Earth, are a warehouse in the city of Abidjan, Ivory Coast. If one thing is allowed, then why another that falls exactly under the same criteria is not?
- That's the difference between you and me, mate. Where you see informations related strictly to the topic, I see a lot of other important (though background) informations. HYDRA couldn't build a factory in Poland unless that country was occupied by the Germans. Dugan's joke about the French not defending Paris means that France was occupied by the Germans. In Schneider you see only one minor guy whose only purpose is to be killed by the big bad guy, but I see his medals and the real-world history behind those medals. In The Captain America Adventure Program you see only silly stories about Cap saving Betty from the evil Nazis, but I see a fictionalization of the real-world battle in the Ardennes. In this poster you see only one guy in a colorful costume, but I see the proof that Allied troops are present on the battlefields of Europe and North Africa. Since the tour was cancelled when the Allies are already present in Italy, that means that North Africa is already liberated by the Allies. In this image you see only some boxes, but I see the proof about the existence of the Afrika Korps and all the battles fought in North Africa during the war. And please, don't start with those-are-just-assumptions complaints.--UskokHail HYDRA! 10:53, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly the same that happened in Zagreb, the arrival of the train that Coulson's Team boarded. For Ivory Coast, exactly the same that happened in Abidjan, Black Widow and Hawkeye's mission. There are many examples, but that's not the topic of this. The topic is, when exactly was the invasion of Poland mentioned in the MCU? or the events in the whole Fall of Western Europe sub-section? Could you please point me the MCU source the Sourcing Policy says that must be added? Because I'm unable to find it... Shabook (talk) 09:01, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- You have bad memory, mate. Remind me, what exactly happened in Croatia in the MCU?--UskokHail HYDRA! 08:55, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Using your same reasoning, real world characters would be filled with their real world biographies copy-pasted from Wikipedia, real world locations would be filled with their real world history, and so on... The Index was removed from every name that has not been confirmed for that reason, despite it was clearly indicated that they were potential names, not confirmed names; and you personally deleted and forbid creation for articles about locations such as Croatia or Ivory Coast because they were not explicitly mentioned in MCU material, despite there are MCU events that happened in those locations. Why this double standards? This article is by no means different than others, and as such it must contain information taken from MCU related sources. Shabook (talk) 08:35, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- All the existing in-universe sources (movies, newspapers) show that the war had the same path like in our history, if we set aside the superheroes and supervillains for the moment.--UskokHail HYDRA! 13:39, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Then, using your same reasoning, we could add real-world events to history sections, such as Christopher Columbus' "discovery" of America, the foundation of New York City, the construction of all the different iconic skyscrapers seen in each of the main images for the American cities that usually appear in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (Atlanta, Boston, Philadelphia...), and so on... Shabook (talk) 13:50, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
If a subject cannot be sourced (Alot of Uskoks examples can be)~it shouldn't be used on the page.TomasDerksen (talk) 13:57, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- That's exactly what I'm saying, events that "lack a source", hence the name of this talk section... Shabook (talk) 14:00, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I know that that is what you are saying, I can read...TomasDerksen (talk) 14:11, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I was just clarifying, given that Uskok has provided examples for things that have sources, not for the ones that lack them. I apologize if you misunderstood the intention of my comment. Shabook (talk) 14:18, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- I know that that is what you are saying, I can read...TomasDerksen (talk) 14:11, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
My opinion: World War II was the greatest war on Earth, making the article necessary. Should it filled with only sources MCU material? I don't think so. I taught school for a little while; modern American children can be idiots. This article integrates real world with fictional. An idiot reading this article will learn both the real and the fictional. Maybe he will learn enough real to actually know something about WWII. This generation of Americans is the smartest (Facebook, Twitter, computers) and dumbest (can't cook, clean, create) in history. Anyway I can help educate the masses is fine by me. Yes, the article lack sources. However, if it is filled with only MCU fact, will the average reader be able to integrate the MCU with reality? Would they even try? Maybe this opinion is a digression from the topic, but I, thus far, enjoy the body of work and don't have a problem. I am part of the Police but the MCU is reality with superheroes...Bratpack (talk) 17:12, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Then other articles can be filled with real-world historic events in order to let people learn about the real world events that lead to the events portrayed in the MCU? Without the construction of the Chrysler Building, Thor would not have had a lightning rod during the Battle of New York, and maybe the Chitauri would have overwhelmed the Avengers and Earth would have been conquered, should we add the construction of that building to the New York City article?
That's one of the many, many random events that can be added following that same reasoning, and I keep wondering, why this article is exempt of following the rules that every other article must follow? Shabook (talk) 17:26, January 10, 2015 (UTC)- You have an excellent point; that is why I say this conversation is interesting. Consistency in mind, it is an except. However, I feel that this exception proves the rule of the MCU being "reality with superheroes" instead of its own reality. Give me time to think; I'll return on second break...Bratpack (talk) 17:34, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- One time, on the POTC Wiki, a bystander asked me if all the info on Hernán Cortés were true. I replied that all the supernatural aspects of Cortés in the POTC world were obviously fictional. Then she said that she was using the article for a school project but, the people at her school wouldn't know the difference. I think we should be flattered to see kids using our real-world articles for school projects, because it means the articles are excellently written. Why not do the same here? I'm not saying we have to overfill the real-world articles with real-world world info blindly copied from Wikipedia. But at least the real-world characters could have two or three sentences about their real-world biographies, at least the parts that predated their MCU appearances. ome things have to be obvious. Winston Churchill didn't appear in the MCU from thin air, he had to become a Prime Minister and lead the UK through the war so he could appear at the Yalta Conference. The same works for Joseph Stalin. I think, at the moment, there are no references about the Holocaust in the MCU, but antisemitism of Hitler's regime is clearly referenced in Captain America: First Vengeance. World War II isn't something we can forget ten minutes after we've learned about it. It has shaped the world we're leaving in, and the MCU world too. With so many references to the real-world participants and events of WWII all over the MCU, how can we pretend the MCU WWII didn't have the same path like the real WWII? So I think this article should be the exception that proves the rule.--UskokHail HYDRA! 14:37, January 11, 2015 (UTC)
- Once again, you're answering to an entirely different topic than the one I'm asking about... Having an introduction for real world topics is something desirable and good, and is something that I've been doing too. One of the earliest examples I remember is writing the article about Tanzania for its mention in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode 1.03: The Asset. Tanzania was mentioned as the source of the gold Ian Quinn used to pay the man that let him use the equipment to kidnap Franklin Hall, so I thought that, the history of the country would mention the importance of mining in that country, being that the reason Quinn Worldwide established a series of mines there. But then, once Captain America: The Winter Soldier premiered, you forbade the creation of locations that hadn't been explicitly mentioned, despite official MCU events have happened there.
So my question is, why multiple real-world events that have not been explicitly mentioned in MCU material are allowed in this article, when an article such as Ivory Coast, that has confirmed official events portrayed in MCU material, is forbidden because the two words "Ivory Coast" have not been explicitly mentioned in MCU material? Could anyone please answer this question? Shabook (talk) 15:00, January 11, 2015 (UTC)- If the official events have happened in those locations, I have nothing against creating the article, as long as some sort of a note is left in the trivia section, something like this:"Despite not being named on screen, this location is identifiable as (name of the location) through (reason why the location is identified as exactly that place)."--UskokHail HYDRA! 13:51, January 12, 2015 (UTC)
- Once again, you're answering to an entirely different topic than the one I'm asking about... Having an introduction for real world topics is something desirable and good, and is something that I've been doing too. One of the earliest examples I remember is writing the article about Tanzania for its mention in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode 1.03: The Asset. Tanzania was mentioned as the source of the gold Ian Quinn used to pay the man that let him use the equipment to kidnap Franklin Hall, so I thought that, the history of the country would mention the importance of mining in that country, being that the reason Quinn Worldwide established a series of mines there. But then, once Captain America: The Winter Soldier premiered, you forbade the creation of locations that hadn't been explicitly mentioned, despite official MCU events have happened there.
- "The people at her school won't know the difference." Sad...Bratpack (talk) 04:59, January 13, 2015 (UTC)
- One time, on the POTC Wiki, a bystander asked me if all the info on Hernán Cortés were true. I replied that all the supernatural aspects of Cortés in the POTC world were obviously fictional. Then she said that she was using the article for a school project but, the people at her school wouldn't know the difference. I think we should be flattered to see kids using our real-world articles for school projects, because it means the articles are excellently written. Why not do the same here? I'm not saying we have to overfill the real-world articles with real-world world info blindly copied from Wikipedia. But at least the real-world characters could have two or three sentences about their real-world biographies, at least the parts that predated their MCU appearances. ome things have to be obvious. Winston Churchill didn't appear in the MCU from thin air, he had to become a Prime Minister and lead the UK through the war so he could appear at the Yalta Conference. The same works for Joseph Stalin. I think, at the moment, there are no references about the Holocaust in the MCU, but antisemitism of Hitler's regime is clearly referenced in Captain America: First Vengeance. World War II isn't something we can forget ten minutes after we've learned about it. It has shaped the world we're leaving in, and the MCU world too. With so many references to the real-world participants and events of WWII all over the MCU, how can we pretend the MCU WWII didn't have the same path like the real WWII? So I think this article should be the exception that proves the rule.--UskokHail HYDRA! 14:37, January 11, 2015 (UTC)
- You have an excellent point; that is why I say this conversation is interesting. Consistency in mind, it is an except. However, I feel that this exception proves the rule of the MCU being "reality with superheroes" instead of its own reality. Give me time to think; I'll return on second break...Bratpack (talk) 17:34, January 10, 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.